How to navigate the world of self-help (E09)

+ Transcript

Conversation for a better tomorrow - Episode 09

How to navigate the world of self-help

Luke Fenwick 0:00 You're going to get better results if you're getting poor results now by applying the exact same mindset thinking principles.

Hello, everyone. Thanks for joining us for Episode 9. Billion dollar global industry that involves meditation techniques from thousands of years ago to new information relating to our brains discovered in the last decade: motivational speeches, strategic life planning, problem solver, clarity creator, or something else altogether in the world of self help. So where do you start? Who do you believe? In this show, we discuss how to navigate the world of self help. So with that, let's get to the show.

Sean Oldham 0:47 Rule one investing team. So basically, some sacrifices is being needed to be made and finding time and waking up earlier. And you know, making sure I get all the requirements done, but really putting my money where my mouth is effectively, right, like, I want to ensure my family's future for a very, very, very, very long time forever, really, and long passed on gone and I want to help other people do the same for their families. So you know, continue to get better at it myself. So yeah, I just decided to take that on, which, I guess in a way ties into business, but more just my other half of the equation, passion. And that's just learning more and more and more about finance. So yeah, that's not really business as usual. So figuring out how to make that all fit, but it's fun. I enjoy it. Awesome.

Luke Fenwick 1:31 Awesome. And when? When does that kind of get rolling? When's that stop?

Sean Oldham 1:36 It did last week. So still, yeah, like I was just doing some work on it before we started this right now. And this is this is a whole new language, you know, the world of, you know, of options, trading and all the different ways to do it. So my mind is hurting with terms and different things that I'm needing to learn. But it's it's coming but yeah, just figuring out how to match the two. It's It's like going to school again at an MBA level. So it's in my mind is is sore. But it's good. It's a good test, and I'm happy to be doing it. But I think you know, if anybody's watching this, they're gonna want me to ask this question. What's up with the with the schnoz, my friend, what's going on there in the middle of the old noggin?

Luke Fenwick 2:19 What's what's up with this schnoz? Well, I was, I was born with this nose. So it is a very, very big nose for people that have not been or have not watched or don't follow us on social media. But I went to the doctor's the other day, and I know that it's summer time over for you guys. And I'm down here in Australia. And it's and it's winter, and you know, three degrees and four degrees. There, I went to the doctors the other day, and they looked at this kind of bit of dry skin that was rather you know, nondescript, it wasn't large on my nose by any stretch of the imagination. They said, Oh, that's that's kind of a form of skin cancer, you should do something about that. It's not a melanoma. But you know, you should should do something about that. So they've basically given me this cream to put on twice a day for at least a month. And it and it looks like it's absolutely just burning a hole through my nose. So for anybody that's out there, Don't be foolish when it comes to the sun and slip slop slap was the old thing that we had down here in Australia many years ago. But put that sunscreen on, because you shouldn't muck around with it. And these times of change in climate and extreme weather. You don't want this on your face. You don't want this nose on your face. And you certainly don't want this red nose on your face. So do something about it. Thanks for thanks for calling that out. Sean I do appreciate that.

Sean Oldham 3:36 Hope you're good. And you know, the prognosis is all good. And you're not wrong. It's funny. You know, ignorance of you, if you will. It was always you know, like, No, I don't wanna put sunscreen on I want a better tan. You know, like, the the different tactics to enhance your tan. And it's, it's amazing. It's amazing how short term wins out you know, short term thinking wins out so much of the time just put the sunscreen on your one day you're gonna be like, why should I not put more of it on?

Luke Fenwick 4:02 Could not agree more absolutely short term thinking get that tan. Oh, so Sean, we're talking about the self help industry today. And we both serve in that which includes anyone from a 16 year old podcast or an aspiring 16 year old podcaster to world famous authors talking about psychology, philosophy and everything in between and I know you're an absolute avid reader. Is there a book that you recall standing out more than another that sped up your journey that you're on now? You know, what did it teach you and and does it still have effects for you to this moment today? And that talked to us.

Sean Oldham 4:39 Yeah, one book that I remember specifically when a lot of the the self help stuff crystallized for me was a book called 'The mindful athlete'. The author was George Mumford. And I've been on this journey of sobriety already for a few years. Been figuring it out, you know, working in a corporate job in hospitality and climbing in that company. And some things were clicking, but it was just not moving very fast. And it was lacking excitement. And I just kind of wasn't happy. And I read this book, The mindful athlete by George Mumford. And it changed my definition of hard and what was going to be necessary to go and pursue a life that was going to give that feeling of of real joy and fulfillment. And the book basically, to sum it up as quickly as I can is this individual George Mumford was in college roommates with Dr. J. Julius Erving, one of the the best basketball players of all time. And George Mumford was pretty damn good himself, like probably going to play in the show. And then his knees just kind of went on him. So let's get towards the end of the story. opioids are involved, he's hiding them in his life, you know, work as an investment banker is going okay, but he's just not really happy, and gets clean fully back towards a life of mindfulness, you know, working at the mindfulness Institute of the US, and finds his way back to basketball poetically, right, working with Michael Jordan, Pippin, Kobe, and Shaq. And it just was a lesson about really stepping back and asking yourself really amazing questions and going where those lead you right so that your self help journey is your own right, like, you're really going down a path that is going to bring you fulfillment, as opposed to trying to mimic what you see out there, or what is being packaged in a flashy way. And that book was magical for me, because it made sure that I headed off in a direction that was authentically my own, and one where I was going to be happy with the outcome, regardless of necessarily what I accumulated. But just because I was heading in a direction that I was passionate about. So I still use that with clients to make sure that at no point during our time together, that they get stuck following a program that is not their own. Right, that they're authors of the self help journey that they're writing. And that is that is a you know, that was huge for me, because I don't know, if I read that book, I probably get here eventually. But that definitely shot gun to the head.

Luke Fenwick 7:11 How old were you when you read that? Sorry.

Sean Oldham 7:15 That wasn't a terribly long time ago, you know that I was already sober. But I probably read that, you know, four or five years ago, when, you know, the improvements that I was making in sobriety kind of started to escalate, right? And was, you know, in and around reading that book and Steve George's roundabout story to get to where he got to, just made me realize how many times things can change in life, right, like how your current story just does not have to be your reality, how it can change multiple times. And you know, the rock says, sometimes, you know, the best thing that happened to you is the best thing that never happened. Hmm. So that was that was that that was that. But yeah, I want to couple things, I'd love to ask you, if you don't mind. One, I just I kind of want to hear where this all started for you. Right? You got a big passion, you want to impact, you know, a million lives by 2025 very powerful mission, you know, like, driven by purpose? Where did it start for you, because you have a lot of corporate roles, and it was progressing, and things were going very well. And there wouldn't have necessarily been what one would have called a need for a change. But you find yourself here. So where did this, you know, burning desire and passion start for you?

Luke Fenwick 8:29 Yeah, it started, it started fairly late. That's kind of why I was asking you, you know, when did it start for you, because, you know, in high school, and even early 20s, and stuff like that self help wasn't even on my radar of anything. I think a motivational quote from Michael Jordan, or a basketball player in a Nike commercial was about as far as had really gotten to thinking in that space, and certainly had spent no time doing any reflection. But, you know, I met a guy years ago. And he was the owner of a Melbourne Cup winning horse for those guys that aren't familiar with the Melbourne Cup. So it's a big horse race here, you know, world famous, one of the richest ones in the world. And I'd met the guy that actually had purchased or owned one of these, one of these race horses, and we were having a drink out of the Melbourne Cup at that point in time, which was another story altogether. I'll share maybe on another time. And I said to him, where did life kind of change for you because he was in a wealthy developer and all these other things. And you said are Tony Robbins changed my life. And I said, Well, what do you mean by that? He said, Well, you know, I didn't have a lot of money. I saw Tony Robbins, and, you know, it changed from there. And to cut a long story short, I said to him, okay, great. That'd be fantastic. I wish I saw Tony Robbins. He said, well actually I'm bringging Tony Robbins out to Australia now, I'll organize a few tickets for you. And I thought this was going to be like a two day or two hour kind of seminar in Melbourne and ended up being a five day event in Sydney, myself or my wife or partner at the time, flew to Sydney and did this thing and absolutely blew my mind absolutely blew my mind the whole walking on fire and everything else. And that really started to, to awaken something in me in regards to how I was going about Life, how I was engaging with people. And, you know, it really went from there, there was this quote that Tony talks about, which is "change your story and change your life". And and that absolutely hit me really hard. And from that point in time, I just came back and started to make these changes within the workspace, and then another lead, eventually kind of led to the stuff that we're doing now. But that's a long answer. But it was here, Tony Robbins, all from having this conversation, this very random conversation with this gentleman who said "take these two tickets" and I'll share more about the tickets and other time. But yeah, that's where it started.

Sean Oldham 10:55 That's an awesome story, man. And, you know, in terms of like, Where did the journey start, for me, seeds were planted all throughout life. And looking back on some of them. I'm grateful for some of the seeds that did get planted the book I read before it was ready, but it's still planted some something in my mind, you know, like, there were several of those, but it just never really fully engaged until I want to say like, yeah, 30 to 33. Sounds about right. You know, like four years ago, when reading that George Mumford book because there was another reference to a story I'm sure you've heard in that book, where it's talking about the good or the bad wolf, right? Like, have you heard of this story about how we all have a good and the bad wolf inside of us. mokona has shared it in a speech. But you know, basically, it's an old like, I think Indian tale Cherokee tale, I could be wrong. But basically, it's the you know, the elder is talking to the, to the youngster, and basically talking about, you know, we all have a good in the bad wolf inside of us in the you know, good, but wolf is like all of the good values and the good qualities that you want to nurture. And, you know, the bad wolf is like the greed and the bad things in human nature, right, but they're both trying to feed on what you put inside. And the story like, of course, I'm paraphrasing, and it's told much better in the book, and by many of the people who have told it before, but basically, the story just kind of tails off. And then the youngster asks the elder, well, well, wait a minute, who who wins, right? And the moral of the story is the one you feed. And that also helped me kind of get it right as I was like, okay, that's why I've been having intermittent success, right, like in and out of success, if you will, like, go on stretches of things are looking amazing. And if I can continue this, the future is incredibly bright, followed by crashes to reality, right? I didn't understand cycles at the time. And I didn't really understand the world of self help. And that little story, the good and the bad wolf, really kind of made me understand something and look closer at success stories, and the backside of them, right, and like what people are actually doing to get these results in their lives. And that's so effectively like when it really started was, yes, around 32-33 when I went from understanding a lot of this in theory, and then saying, Well, what happens if I do a bunch of this stuff and continue to for the rest of my life?

Luke Fenwick 13:08 Yeah, I love it. I love that story. I haven't heard about the good and the bad wolf before. It reminds me a little bit, you know, when I work with clients, usually towards the end of they're time, actually, in our mixes around a little bit, sorry to jump on that one. But I talk to people about the different personas that they have. So what I try to enable people to do is that, okay, there's this part of life that you're trying to develop, and there's this persona that exists for you day in and day out. And you know, Sean, this is your day in and day out persona, so name him, you know, what does he do in regards to his characteristics and you know, behaviours and whatnot. And what triggers the other version of Sean to appear? And we might call Sean, Sam. And when Sam comes along, what does heydo right, so what are his habits? What are his behaviors? And why does he kind of occur? And when people can start to uncover the difference between the everyday versus this other persona a bit like what you're talking about, with good and bad wolf that enables them to really re educate themselves on this other person that appears and the values that they no longer do? Oh, I think that's an awesome story. I'm going to try and interweave that into the persona thing that I do with people. So thank you for sharing. I love it.

Sean Oldham 14:29 Google it and if you're listening as well, Google it. I mean, Matthew, if you google Matthew McConaughey, good and bad wolf. He does a very entertaining rendition but others have done it. It's you know, it's all folklore. And it's a it's a great little tale. So definitely look it up. That would be maybe the biggest takeaway you get from this episode. Who knows?

Luke Fenwick 14:48 Absolutely. Wolf persona, work on it. I love it. Well, I think we're gonna get into the We haven't done this one for a little while, I don't think maybe last episode, so we're gonna get into the, you know the quotes from the greats.

Sean Oldham 15:06 Yeah, absolutely. So, you've talked a lot about Tony Robbins, and his impact on you. So gonna start there, obviously. I love this as well I use this one often if you've gone through any video compilation on YouTube ever and looked at motivational quotes or winning psychologies, you've heard this little rant. But you know, take it away. I'm actually curious to know to Luke is this also one of the things you maybe heard early from him that really helped also shift you on this journey? But what does this mean to you "burn the boats, if you want to conquer the island. Burn the boats".

Luke Fenwick 15:45 Yeah, I, I did hear this early on with him. And I think it actually took a real a little while for to kind of stick and figure out what it meant. But, you know, I look at it and say that, our mind will always try to find the way out, you know, it will often try to find an easy way out or an alternate way out, as soon as it starts to run into some something new or something challenging. So his point of burning the boats, if you want to conquer the island is, is really get into the mindset in the space where there is no alternative other than the path that you are on. So if you burn the boats, you can't get off that island, you need to take the island, no matter what. And that's that was something really powerful is if you want to make change in your life, then then you need to be setting yourself up that there is no alternative other than to move forward and to do those things. Because you if you leave yourself enough wiggle room, then quite often you'll slip back up and going the other direction. And that's that's the hard part, right? Like, that's what we all battle with, you know, we might want to do these amazing things. But you know, why do we keep on slipping up? And getting back into this cycle where we were But yeah, I just really love that. What do you take away from it out of curiosity, Sean.

Sean Oldham 17:04 It's just similar things just like stop allowing for the other possibility to be an option, you know, just like commit for the rest of your life, if it's necessary to chase this outcome, and do it passionately, right, because I know where, you know, having done this long enough now and having not had a traditional job for as long as I have now, I very much understand what happens to the object of your desire and what you focus on and the energy with which you bring to that focus, right? Because that means that you're going to do the work, you're gonna enjoy doing the work, and you're gonna continue to improve your systems that doing the work, right? Because you're very clear of focus and goal. And you know, that like, once I kind of committed to that where I was, like, you know what, I've got a healthy amount set aside, and I'm in a comfortable place, like, if not now when, right? Like I'm burning the option of that other job and running back. And I remember just kind of stopping even entertaining interviews, and that moment, something kinda like, like, a real shift happened, you know, and it was kind of linear to this. And I was probably thinking about this, to be honest with you like is this quote has also been close to my mind for a lot of my life? And I just thought no, like, burn the safety net of well, I could always get another job. Because I know, I know, at the end of the day, that is the obvious answer. But I made it in my mind seem as though no, that is absolutely not an option like making this work. Like being able to look at my kids one day when I tell them to go after what they're passionate about. If they asked me Well, did you and I couldn't answer. Yes. I wasn't going to be okay with that. Right. So like, that was my kind of burn the boats moments, probably around a year ago, kind of thing. Or maybe 9-10 months ago was really when I just kind of leaned in, it was like No, this is it. I'm leaning into this as long as it takes to, to just be my life. And yeah, it's it's powerful. And like, that's the thing is some people will always kind of counter with. Yeah, but like, it's not that easy to just kind of, you know, visualize the boats burning or, you know, give myself like no ways out or whatever it might be at the start. Yeah, it's a little difficult to create those scenarios in your mind and make them believable and you know, work at only seeing one option, but that's part of it. That's part of the work of the journey is having such a clear and powerful destination, that you're you'll endure almost any how to achieve your why.

Luke Fenwick 19:18 Yeah, I think that's why deadlines eventually work really well for people too. Because that, in essence is kind of like burning the boats, like we, we flaff around with things for so long until we have this looming deadline, then all of a sudden, it kind of snaps us into action. Up until that point time, you know, we go through this, well, I can't do this, or maybe I'll do it later or try and do it this way. Or can I you know, say that the dog ate my homework or whatever it is. But as soon as that looming deadline appears we're like, okay, you know, we need to move forward. But, you know, I'd love to ask you this one though, Sean. So life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. And Confucius "Overthinking the journey ahead is the common block to starting. Chop wood, carry water". I love that I love chop wood carry water.

Sean Oldham 20:07 Yeah, well, I mean like to shorten the chop wood carry water portion is I think it's a Buddhist saying, but you know basically like on your on your path to enlightenment, chop wood carry water, right. Like once it once enlightenment achieved chop wood carry water, right, just go right back to doing what you were doing on the way there. And you know what that means to me like is that the chop wood carry water was just kind of an added piece, the Confucius quote was ended with, you know, but we insist on making it complicated, but they both play so well together. But the Confucius quote is just what I did with so much of my life, like I resisted the idea of, you know, the simple way often being the best way. And this is where a lot of us get stumped man and you're big on habits, you're big on tiny habits, big wins. And, you know, this is this is the thing that is is so critical to get through to clients is just understand the power of what you do daily really is where the answers lie. And if you can just kind of detach from the outcome and understand that absolutely bloody everything is on a compound interest line, right? It's on the compound interest curve. like think about when you put the work in physically to you know, sign up for a race, maybe, I don't know, if you've ever done a race or triathlon, I know big sporting in Australia, but whatever it might be you you signed up for something, and you're starting to train for it, right? It doesn't happen all at once. It's almost like you know, the universe, whatever power greater than yourself, is waiting to see how badly you want it before it lets you start benefiting from this part of the curve, because that's just simply how compound interest works, investing. That's how compound interest works with basically everything like the more that you put in, there's going to be that kind of like a lot of energy going into the inertia. And then all of a sudden, boom, like, if you stay with it, stay with it long enough, you're gonna get shot out of a cannon, but with self help, we overcomplicate it and look for like the most complex solution and like, keep digging and keep digging, as opposed to accepting the simplest reality, which is just, let's get real honest with ourselves and look at what we do daily and reverse engineer it right? Like, who are we trying to become? Well, what does that person do daily, right? What is their day? Like? What are they? What is their thinking? Like? Well, let's reverse engineer that to start doing what they do on a regular basis to eventually get the outcomes that they got. And it's a really roundabout way to say it, but this is really it. You know, if you're out there, and you're thinking, I'm gonna get started on my self help journey, and I'm thinking about who I want to work with, or I'm thinking about, you know, what path do I take? Just start with the end in mind? Like, what am I trying to achieve? What is a life well live looked like to me, and then keep it simple, right, like the flashiest overly marketed, you know, paid a promo person might not be for you, right, you might benefit from going to a high level individual into just buying their course, like a Brendon Burchard offline, or you might want the one on one, right, but just make sure the energy is matched. And that you know, like what they're about. And I've done a little bit of research, and you know, kind of get into it, but just know that right? I wish I would have known that a long time ago is simple as Okay, simple is often actually best. If you look at the best investors on the planet. I'm gonna end it here because this has been quite a rant, Luke, but just read a book called richer, wiser happier about the best investors of all time, and like how they craft lives that are truly uniquely their own. And it really comes down to the simplest way is the best way when it comes to investing. But very few people do it because it goes against our desire to constantly see action. Because these guys wait, they wait for the right opportunity. So they do a lot less trading, but make a lot more money, right because it's the simplest way but more people don't do it because it goes against human nature. And that's now we're back now we're back to this but that's my thoughts on that. Try to break that down.

Luke Fenwick 24:05 No I won't. I'll leave it in its in its perfection. But chop wood carry water for me, also really just gets into that it's being in the moment. So it's case I'm here like fun chopping wood and carrying water. I'm in the moment and I'm doing that that very thing. As you were saying it's not about overly kind of complicating No, it's not about trying to do all of these other things in this moment, I chop wood in this moment, I carry water. And and that's what I need to do. That's why I'm going to do this and then that will take me forward to the to the next thing. And if I think about it, even within, you know, the sporting industry that I've worked in before, if I think of your elite athletes and how they train, you know whether or not it is that jump shot or that rebounding technique, you know within a basketball kind of vernacular is that they are in that moment, look To execute that skill on that play to the absolute very, very best ability, you know, they're not worried about the play, five minutes down, down the course of the game, they're worried about that moment, box out, shoot shot, elbow tucked in, release, all these things in the same kind of thought needs to be applied to our lives, focus where your feet are at, do not worry about these things all the way down the road, like have an eye to a to a degree, which is what you're talking about, but you've got to get the stuff that's, that's happening to you right now, correct.

Sean Oldham 25:36 You, you want to beach bod, you want to be fit, then be the person that has a training routine and finds time to work out five days a week, you know, it's really like, this is what I'm saying is that in North America, the more people are obese than not, right? Like that's, that's alarming, you know, I mean, more people are overweight than not the all those people that are not overweight, not theoretically understand what is necessary to get there, you know what I mean, but unfortunately, our evolutionary machinery is very easily manipulated, and the human is very easily manipulated within that system. So you know, therefore, you do have a lot of people literally drinking the Kool Aid and eating the Doritos and, you know, not questioning that or not looking at the incoming stimulus and going, if I continue doing this, right, and I say, this is somebody that at my heaviest weight about, you know, I think 270 pounds, right, right now I'm coming in at about 220 222. So, you know, I had 50 extra pounds on me from just kind of eating whatever I wanted, and drinking everything inside. So I've been very heavily overweight, my knees hurt, it wasn't comfortable. I was brought athletic, I couldn't do the things I used to do a hike was brutal. So you know, I've come down from that right over time. And, you know, the difference for me was, again, simplicity was just like, Well, what do the people that are in good physical condition do on a regular basis? Well, it's really simple. Start doing those things, and start making it harder on yourself as you go right to not plateau, it's really not that hard. But a lot of people want to pay for the complicated, you know what I mean? That's why so many people gaff it in investing, and don't stay in it for a very long time, is that they go in on the hype, do what a lot of other people are doing, constantly trying to trade thinking that more action always leads to better results. But you know, if anybody's listening right now, and you want to know more about investing, but like really be entertained by a book as well, richer, wiser, happier by William gray, and you'll understand what I'm talking about when it comes to, if you can go against human nature, and sit on your hands a little bit and wait for the best deals to come understanding what market cycles look like. You don't actually have to do a lot to do incredibly well. Right? You just got to know what you're looking for. and simple. And that's what I'm been spending all this time doing is learning the simplest, most effective method that doesn't require a ton of time to capitalize off of the financial markets.

Luke Fenwick 25:37 Yeah. And I think that's why at the end of the day, that's why you reach out for self help in whatever particular field it is, right? Like you're trying to find the experts that can enlighten you to head in the right direction, you still ultimately need to do the work and make the choice. But you know, that's why you're, that's why you're reaching out to people.

Sean Oldham 28:24 Yeah, people smarter. And I will never stop. I will never stop, right. It's about that. It's about you know, like, in our time working together, there's been things I've needed to lean on you for right. And like, that's, that's kind of how this whole machine works is for one not being fearful of admitting that other people know more than you because that's so many people out there on a subject at least they're gonna know more than you on that subject. Right. So like, letting ego go and just becoming curious.

Luke Fenwick 28:47 Yeah, okay. Right. I like it. I like it a lot. Thank you for that. Let's do another quote.

Sean Oldham 28:54 Oh, okay. Well, I want to throw in your way. Albert, okay, I like this. So "the world as we have created it, is a process of our thinking. It cannot be changed without changing our thinking". So this obviously came from a very, very deep introspective man, what does this quote mean to you Luke?

Luke Fenwick 29:15 Well, this is kind of the crux of why people, you know, maybe should be exploring a little bit more around the whole self help piece in the first place, is that often what happens is that we do get caught in that, that bubble of our own thinking, or an echo chamber of those that are around us. And you know, we're not going to be able to create or, you know, form a new world or change our thinking if we keep on going back to the same kind of stuff. And that's what I think he's talking about here is that you know, you need to change your thinking if you want to impact your results, and your results will then impact all these other things that are going on in life. And there's this cycle that exists which kind of starts with you know, our emotion then you know, forms in behavior and our behavior impacts our results. And those results give us meaning. And then over time, that meaning is tied into the emotion, and then you get on this absolute kind of cycle that keeps on going and around and around and around. So if you can't change your thinking, which impacts the emotion, the behavior, the results and the meaning, then you're always going to Spiral Spiral around that. So again, you know, the theme for us today is to talk about navigating this world of self help. And you've absolutely alluded to it before, when you're talking about, you know, the finance industry and some of the other stuff is that you need to adapt your thinking, now, not necessarily to be a mini version of these other people around you, but you're not going to get better results, if you're getting poor results now, by applying the exact same mindset thinking principles, strategy, and go, Okay, well, I'm gonna get a better outcome, this time, it just doesn't happen, it just won't happen. Like you need to change something, to change the outcome.

Sean Oldham 31:03 Pride is probably one of the bigger blocks to those outcomes being achieved. Because Because that's that, like I, at one point in my life would have probably been offended by that, if you told me that, you know, my thinking was the major problem. And where I was, I would have probably been quite offended, right? In this in the state of mind that I was. So I wholeheartedly agree with you. Someone who's on the verge, though, how do you how do you massage that in a way that is maybe more acceptable? Because you're right, you're bang on is that you know, to be harder to get a different outcome, you do need to change your thinking just flapping your wings harder and working harder. If working hard, was genuinely the answer, right? If like, if working incredibly hard, was the answer, whether there'll be a lot more millionaires out there, there'll be a whole lot more millionaires out there, because they're willing to work really, really, really hard. But there's something more to it.

Luke Fenwick 31:57 Well, 100%, going to the gym seven days a week doesn't mean that you are working to the point where you're going to create the body, or the fitness level that you want. So it's not just about showing up. And you were talking a little bit before, so you've made mention of pride. And you're also talking before, you know, around curiosity, if your pride is in your way, and thus, ego is in your way for making change, then absolutely take it from the perspective of I'm going to be more curious, in regards to how these people are being successful, or how these people are making change. So come from a from a fact finding information gathering perspective and go okay, right, then I'm going to look at it that way, if your ego is just so far in the way that you can make change, fine. Just gather that information and see what that does to you. And I think that's where I fell down for so many years. And you know, I still need to be mindful of it now as well is that when I was really younger, I didn't have a curiosity mindset at all. And that was driven by fear of if I try something new and different than fuck it up, then that's an issue. And that was a real problem for me. And now I'm trying to you know, I'm trying to improve my knowledge. I'm trying to use your knowledge to read more books. I, you know, I tried to sit down. You know, with every one of my clients, I was talking to a potential new client the other day, who's actually just signed on, he said, Well, why do you do this? Why do you have, you know, what is all this about? You know, what do you get out of working with with people? I said, part of what I love is understanding more around human behavior, and why people do things and how they make changes, or why they don't make changes. And that, for me is coming from a really deep level of curiosity. Like I'm becoming absolutely fascinated with it. And when I reflect back, I always have enjoyed it, because that's what work has always been for me over these last 25 years, it's about how do I get the best out of humans and human behavior within the workplace, whereas that's going on now. So and that's driven out of curiosity, and having less pride, and not going well, I should know it or I must know it, or I do know at all, it's now going, you know, truth be told, we don't know shit. You know, we're trying to figure it out. But us as humans, we don't know it all. Come on, give you some?

Sean Oldham 34:18 No everyone seems to say they can predict what's happening down to like, you know, a percentage point this next quarter, and this company is going to earn exactly this. And then hey, here comes a pandemic, you know what I mean? So, you know, everyone's crystal ball is at the shop and still getting worked on, you know what I mean? Nobody has, you know, like clairvoyance, it's just not going to happen. And yeah, no, I love what you said, because the why that I do this is is very, very similar. And you can see, you know, pretty clearly I think, why curiosity is one of those three questions that I asked myself on a regular basis. You know, did I embrace curiosity, because weeks go very differently if I did versus didn't, you know, new opportunity, meeting new people, exciting new possibilities happen when you embrace curiosity and just kind of go well, I wonder where that would go, if I entertain that wild idea that just came into my mind, right? Like, let's let's go that way that like, if you completely if you consistently dismiss that voice in your head, what you could call curiosity, right? Like part of it, you could call curiosity. If you consistently dismiss it, then you allow for predictable roads, right? You, you, you, you are basically accepting predictable pathways, because you're allowing the way you think about the past and feel about the past to create a very predictable loop cycle that's going to continue to generate a fairly predictable future, right, present and future. So it literally yes, it does get like coming all the way back to Einstein. It is entirely about how you think. And if you allow for new thoughts and new behaviors and new habits, you will offer new paths.

Luke Fenwick 35:49 Absolutely. I love it. Well, tell me about this one. So Joseph Campbell, I don't believe people are looking for the meaning of life as much as they are looking for the experience of being alive.

Sean Oldham 36:02 Well, I mean, that this one can be argued from multiple different standpoints. In terms of what people are looking for, you know, I think, I think some people actually give up long before they think about either of these things. And that's unfortunate, but to me, it just means that the people that are gonna kind of find fulfilment or find anything similar to enlightenment, or true joy, are the ones that one way or another, just gonna ask really deep questions, you know, and that's what we keep coming back to is the questions that we ask ourselves, your your guy Tony Robbins, and I'm gonna paraphrase, but says something along the lines of you can you can tell, you can measure the success of one's life by the quality of the questions they ask themselves. And, you know, that's, that's really kind of what this comes down to is, you know, if they're looking for the experience of being alive, while they're looking, they're seeking, they're looking deep within, right, because they're trying to kind of figure out the algorithm that provides them consistent joy, what are the things I need to be doing, thinking, you know, surrounding myself with, and allowing to enter my mind allowing to enter my body, how I use my body, right? Like there's a, there's a certain mix of you know, how to, to get the most out of life for each individual person. So that's why you know, don't settle on somebody else's way or viewpoint. Just keep working at it, because it's a constant, in motion, never ending journey, this world of self help in this world of figuring yourself out, you can be doing it until the very end, there's always another book to read, there's always another way to look at it. And if you really, really embrace that curiosity, it's it's a never ending journey, right? Because the journey never ends. If you're always on the way,

Luke Fenwick 37:44 Well, I'll ask you this thing. So detaching from the outcome is something that we've discussed before. Why do you think it's necessary on the self improvement journey to detach from the outcome?

Sean Oldham 37:56 Just the obsession, the obsession over it's not having happened yet is going to take the dream away from many people. Comparison, you know, why does that person have it already? Why do I not write any energy that goes away from just chop wood, carry water, chop wood, carry water on the path to enlightenment, anything that deviates from any version of that is not contributing to your overall mission. So you know, that's basically why detaching from the outcome is crucial, like Wayne Dyer is who I first fully understood this concept from, right. He's a pretty solid thinker in terms of creating the life you're after, and, you know, visualization, and all of these things, which I think are critically important. That's why he tell kids to use their imagination, right? Like, think like think things into existence. So yeah, detaching from the outcome just gives you a lot of energy back to the process. Right? If you take all this energy away, that is just spent panicking worrying about how is this going to happen? How am I going to get this done? Right? Oh, my there's so many steps, they're gonna be involved in getting there. I'm Oh, man, like negative thoughts and negative thoughts, negative thoughts, right. And you, you remove that, and inject it back in the process. And all of that fear and energy is no longer there. And you're just like, Man, I'm learning today. Like, this is fun. I'm getting a little bit closer, right? I'm solving a few problems that I didn't know yesterday, I'm getting further down the path, right? Think about how much extra energy you free up. If the outcome, you're just kind of like, I'm trusting in this process. I'm trusting in me and my constant evolution. I'm detaching from the outcome. I know where I'm going, right. It's not saying don't have a target don't have crystal clear targets. It just says, Don't allow whether or not that happens. And when dominate your thinking, because you take a lot of energy from where it should be. And that's in the process.

Luke Fenwick 39:37 Yeah, don't don't get caught up with how you get there to that destination that you seek. If you fail multiple times and have to tweak, tweak tweak until you get there then then don't get caught up with that. So maybe I'll ask you another question. So what can go wrong? And what should someone look out for when starting to dip their toes into the world of self improvement, so if someone's sitting there listening to this, you know, give us a tip around that.

Sean Oldham 40:08 I think just like, you know, you don't have to enter the world, you know, like you're getting shot out of a cannon, you know, at some, there are certain points in your life, you're thinking, Oh, I need to change everything, I need to change it right now. overwhelm is real, right? Especially when you try to develop new habits and develop new skills, overwhelm is very, very, very real. Just follow people to whom you like the message, trust your gut on a lot of things. I think that, you know, these weapons of mass distraction that we carry around in our pockets, do a very good job of, you know, not allowing us to kind of critically think and just spend more time just thinking like, you know, do I relate to this person? Do I relate to this message? Does this message feel good? Do I want to explore this message and explore this possibility? And if the answer is yes, do it not like the worst reason to necessarily do self help, is because it's now in Vogue, or, you know, other people are doing it or you hear, you know, water cooler talk about, you know, going to seminar going to that, like, if that gets you in the door? Yes. But you know, it self help journey should never be to impress somebody, it should never be for somebody else. You know, like, I've done some inventory first, right? I've done a little inventory on like, what, what do I really kind of want out of life, like, maybe try to, you know, latch on to a book or to go on a Google list, and start looking at like, top 10 motivational desktop 10 list, right? And you'll find lists for everything. And if you look at who has agreed, who are the agreed upon experts based on ratings and reviews, maybe you absorb a little bit of their content, right. So you like before anybody else is trying to sell you anything can get into your mind. You've started the learning process a little bit already. That's that is my answer to that. Do you? Is there anything that you'd add on that? Because I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. I mean, there's the list could be a million things long. But to sum that up, is just do a little research first, right? Like before you buy anything from anyone?

Luke Fenwick 41:56 Yeah, I totally agree. I think you've got to... I think you've absolutely got to do your research, everybody's got a bit of a different flavor, everybody's got a bit of a different slant on whatever it is the particular topic that you're talking about, you know, you're, a money EQ coach, so you're talking about the financial world, and you know, how that mindset appears. So whether or not they're looking at you, or someone else that works in that space, like it's absolutely dig into it, do some research, see what their philosophies, you know, watch some YouTube clips. And I think at the end of the day, it's exactly what you said, I hate to echo it, but it will repeat it, but it is it's do some inventory, you know, sit down over the course of a couple of weeks, and try to understand a little bit about what's going on in your life. Like just look for those patterns of behavior and where things are going up and down and go, Okay, well, this, this seems to be the occurrence that goes on for me, you know, pretty much daily, and then start to look at, okay, who exists within that space, understand a little bit more and go from there. But, you know, I can't see there being too many, too many dangers in people actually getting into the space just to try and see how they better themselves. No, don't talk yourself out of it, give it a go, you know, move forward, I'm not talking about go out and invest $10,000 into in our coaching clinic or something, but just just try it. If it's reading more books, or listening to more podcasts or writing...

Sean Oldham 43:23 As the industry grows, there's also way more like, you know, comfortable ways to enter, right, like a group coaching program, that you know, somebody that's a pretty big name offers, but it's a follow along at your own pace kind of thing. So there's a lot of less intimidating ways to enter it. But the thing that I think is also crucial that I fully get now, right, because I was I will always be taking, like going into some type of seminar like, especially when the world opens up. Again, I can't wait to go to some of those live again, I think you could agree with that. But some type of like online workshop or training or some way to improve myself, I get it now, like I fully get that that investment is never wasted. And I will be continuing to do this. Right. And like that's, that's one thing that I didn't kind of understand before, because I was looking at the immediate value of the dollars spent on this self improvement, right. And I was comparing it to what other things I could purchase with this money. Now, it's almost like I'm looking for more ways to justify spending more money on self help, because the returns are insane. And I'm not going to talk figures. But I would not have thought my life right now would have been possible go back two to three, four years ago, right? I wouldn't have thought I would have been possible this fast. And you know, it's amazing if you just gather information, but also put that information to use and have a plan to continue reinvesting in yourself. Like anything you invest in, it improves, right. So you know, over time, right? If you invest enough effort, energy and time, things usually go up and that applies to most everything right apart from outliers apart from anomalies. So think about that. Are you in this for the long term because if it's a lifelong game, you're going to benefit for a lifetime. But I want to ask you this because you know, prices do vary, right? So, you know, Tony Robbins again, right? He's been a big part of this show, but apparently it costs a million dollars to have him for a coach for an individual session. I don't know where you got those figures. But you know, what, if you don't have a million dollars, Luke, what does somebody do?

Luke Fenwick 45:17 Well, you know, I've heard him say it, actually. So whether that was a long time ago, but I've absolutely heard him talk about in the million bucks for a session, and I think he's got, you know, a year or a multi year waiting list of people wanting to throw a million dollars at him. But I think if you don't have a million dollars, then absolutely the things that we've been speaking about in the last few minutes, find the person that resonates with you, you know, watch some of their content, get a book, book yourself into some seminars, but it's also, you know, who are the people that might be that very, very, very pointy, and have that self development spear, you know, who have learned from, you know, whether or not these mindset coach or you know, body kind of physical experts, money coach or whatnot, like, look at the look of the learnings from some of these individuals that have that have gone along to these seminars, I know that you mentioned at the start that, you know, you talk about, you know, you're investing in yourself for a year and getting into this amazing kind of program. So people should be looking at that opportunity from you, because you're learning from the pointy end of the spear, you know, people look at me and go, Okay, well, you know, he's been around and he's worked with individuals for 25 years to understand their behavior. He's, you know, taking study away from you know, Tony, or we've both been to Jays school, or, you know, I also look at, you know, psychologists and therapists and understand what they're talking about. So, find individuals that have all of those things. Find individuals that have all of those things within their repertoire, if you can't afford the million bucks, find the information or the pool of information that exists that you can learn some similar stuff, that that's how I'd approach it, or start saving.

Sean Oldham 46:57 Yeah, no, 100% do both, actually. But, you know, Tony Robbins is actually one who will also tell you like, well, I don't have the resources. Well, I don't have the time, right. And he will tell you bullshit to absolutely everything. Because, you know, most people didn't have the resources until they kept working at it till they had the resources, right. So it's like, this whole, like, I'm limited now excuse. It's not valid. And that hurts to hear that I remember being at a point in my life where that sucked to hear where like that, like, literally hurt my ego. I was like, oh, man, like, What do you mean? Like, it's not about the resource, not about this, like I wanted it to be. Because I was at a point in my life where I wanted it to be, I wanted that crush, I wanted that excuse. Because that crush and that excuse temporarily allows you to feel better about yourself, right? Once you burn the boats to go all the way back, right and remove any excuses and just accept the truth for what it is, then you can start asking questions and go forward based on those results. Right? Like, I know, I would like to be that. And I would like to have more of that in my life. So what is somebody that has more of that in their life? What do they do? What do they become masters of? Right? What disciplines do they do daily, right? Like, like, literally, if you're curious, like I would try this exercise, if you're listening to this show, is look at some people that you really look up to in different walks of life, whatever it might be, and try to Google what you can about their routine, or try to look into rituals that they may have, you're gonna find that the more successful people get the you know, the the higher level people got, there's almost always going to be some very ritualistic behavior, to get them into their flow state, you know, almost everybody is going to have some type of sequence, very few people get to a very high level without being you know, ritualistic of some sort, you know, and having things that they do that simply bring them to their best on a regular basis.

Luke Fenwick 48:46 Well, these things don't happen by mistake, or accident, quite often, there might be some outliers, but more often than not, it's been, you know, a steady progress over many, many years. And, you know, making sure get and you said before, you know, what do people get into how do people get into flow state now, whether or not it's the mind or the body, we don't go out and just run, you know, 50 miles or 100 kilometers without building up to it, you know, we don't sit down and write a amazing, you know, book or write or create music just off the bat, like, you know, we're actually building up to these particular things like you just don't wake up and all of a sudden go Okay, here we are finished, finished product, like you need to start somewhere. And you talked about it at the very, very start at least halfway through that whole pride piece, like push your pride out of the way if that is the thing that is holding you back from moving forward, then it's it's time that you spend some time working on pride and ego to get that out of the way and then move forward into that space.

Sean Oldham 49:47 Yeah, no pride is pride is a foolish Man's Burden. You know, it keeps people from correcting the mistake they made because they got to stick with their original assertion. So one more question I want to throw out yet last question here. There are so many different coaches, influencers, life experts, how you differentiate man, are they all the same? Like, how much is new news? And how much is new theory? And how much of it is just being re peddled? Like, how do you find an original out there?

Luke Fenwick 50:17 Yeah, I think that is a really difficult, difficult thing. And I don't sit here myself and say, Hey, I am, you know, coming up with all of these particular new theories. Because I don't think there are lots and lots of new theories out there, I think a lot of it is is reworked stuff with a different slant. And that's okay, because at the end of the way, human behavior occurs in a particular way, I know that we now know more about in the last decade with how our brain works than ever before. And the last 50 years have changed dramatically compared to what came before that. But at the end of the day, I think a lot of the theories around the same, you know, we have the same kind of fears, you know how with the same kind of challenges in regards to how we learn things, you know, our predisposition to doing x, y, and Z, all of these things are still very much Same, same. So I don't think there's a lot of new stuff out there, I think you need to find the things that resonate with you. They're the things you go, right, okay, aha, this is what can make the change for me and kind of go from there, and shout out to every coach that's out there, the 18 year old coach that's going I just want to make a change in life all the way through to someone that's been in the industry for 30 40 50 60 years, or whatever it is that that absolutely, has been doing this forever, like shout out to everyone that wants to make a change, or help others. Because we all we all need help. Right? So keep going.

Sean Oldham 51:50 it's a beautiful thing, when done, right? You know, when someone is very, very passionate about it for the right reasons, you know, not in it just demonetised something, great things can happen. And a lot of lives can change for the positive.

Luke Fenwick 52:03 And when we you know, we spend a bit of time on social media, you know, I'll look at some people, there's a lady in Melbourne, she's a coach, and she's on Instagram, and she's got 200 followers or something like that. And she's awesome. Every piece of content she puts out there, I read, I read her blogs, you know, I'd shout out now, but her name, unfortunately is escaped me. She's over in South Melbourne, but I read her blogs of look at a website or this kind of stuff. She's got 200 followers on Instagram. So I look at that now go, She's incredible. And the social media stuff doesn't doesn't matter. She's doing an amazing job. So, you know, shout out to all these people that are just just trying to make a difference. But um, you know, we're heading up to an hour if we're not past it, and I think it's time we start to bring this to a close, but, you know, what do you think is next for the self help industry? You know, where do you Where do you see this billion dollar industry going? Sean?

Sean Oldham 53:00 Well, naturally, you know, kind of understanding capitalism as this business, you know, continues to grow, I definitely see the concept of the like, very, very lavish, you know, bourgeois type of wellness retreat, continuing to expand, right, as we hop out of COVID, I see retreats being big business in general, right, people wanting to find themselves like holistic wellness, transformational type retreats out into nature, I see being a big deal, but I see more and more of those just kind of specialized education, and platforms, just moving online, right, like different ways of learning, whether it be you know, like group team learning where, you know, you just like programs being created for teams. But you know, a lot more of that, right, a lot more just kind of be able to go to like, find what you need, and, you know, purchase this and then you've just basically kind of uploaded like, a little bit longer than it is, you know, in the matrix when Neo just gets given a, you know, a bit of code, and he knows kung fu. But you know, similar in that sense, where you can just kind of go shopping for what you want to learn, and then you kind of learn that specialty, and then Off you go, and it's, you know, just more is going to be accessible to more people. That's that's just kind of what continues to happen. That's what technology does. So people are just gonna have to continue to get more creative. And how do they allow their content, their content to rise up and their message to make sure that they are resonating with who they are trying to target and just continue to stay up to date with how that's getting disseminated? Because I can guarantee you one thing, Luke is there's going to be one method of delivery or coaching are a shift that's happened to this industry in the next five years that none of us will have seen coming. I guarantee you that.

Luke Fenwick 54:36 Oh, absolutely. There's that's Yes. Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more and one exciting time that's going to be maybe we'll do that, Sean. Maybe we'll do that. But thank you. Thank you to everyone. Thanks to the listeners. If you like it, encourage you to like, share, subscribe, tell your friends. Tell your husband to your wife, tell everybody. We'll be back in a few weeks for an episode dedicated to myself, I think I think that's the next episode I'm looking at.

Sean Oldham 55:03 It's your turn, Luke. So I'm gonna be peppered with questions over the next couple of weeks here.

Luke Fenwick 55:07 Absolutely cannot wait for it. So as always, everyone be safe. Be present, be you and Sean?

Unknown Speaker 55:14 Be fulfilled.

Luke Fenwick 55:16 Alrighty, everybody, bye for now.